sample is kindly provided by a student like you, use it only as a guidance. He looked down on Nora from the start, but thats how she thought it was supposed to be. She, A Dolls house is a three act play by Henrik Ibsen, which tells the story of a woman named Nora and her advances into independence from her husband. But there is also a slight comparison between them in the sense that both Nora and Dr. Rank have inherited something from their parents: Nora has got her lavish nature from her father, and Rank has inherited his tuberculosis which is said to be the result of his father's recklessness. Password recovery email has been sent to email@email.com, Don't waste time. Explanation: The characters of Mrs. Christine Linde and Krogstad are from Henrik Ibsen's play "A Doll's House . True or False: Nora seems to be calm and handling the Krogstad/forgery situation well during Act II. He also seems to think that women are capable of other responsibilities apart from playing wives and mothers for all their lives. When Nora says that she does not have that kind of influence on her husband, he threatens to expose the forged signature that she used as a signatory note to secure the loan. Its very obvious that he loves his wife Nora; he gives her whatever she wants within reason and is a great provider. He also gives her more money to buy herself a present even after overspending in the Christmas shopping. There are minor parallels and contrasts other than the above, like the contrast between Dr. Rank and Helmer, and the slight parallel between Nora and Krogstad. Over the storyline, Torvald admits to have studied with Krogstad in his childhood but they this does not make them friends (Ibsen 2010). Becomes afraid of Krogstad. Nora looks very young and attractive, but Mrs. Linde looks middle-aged and pale. Torvald also complains about Nora's late father. Beginning of Act 2. Nora has three children, some property and a possessive husband, but Mrs. Linde has none of them. They both have a human heart. Anna-Maria (nurse/Nanny): The nurse, Anna-Maria, brings news to Nora about the . The meeting between the characters of Mrs. Christine Linde and Nils Krogstad launches the plot into its memorable unresolved climax, offers a suspenseful twist for the play's audiences, and breaks a few gender stereotypes as well. Advertisement MubeenaD Nora in part though accepts this because she still acts like a child. When Jack finally admits he created a false brother and asks for forgiveness, Gwendolen says, I can. "Good Critical Thinking On Torvald Helmer And Nils Krogstad And Roles Of Men In The Late Nineteenth Century. L. parallels in A Dolls House, 2013. The whole world was supposed to revolve around her., From the very beginning, Torvald treated Nora like a baby. Their activities or other successes are measured by the masculinity of men. He touches on a wide range of social and moral problems: familial corruptions, friendship and love, honesty and deception, and others. Also, Nora realized she had a lot of growing up to do, because she acted like a child more than an adult. In fact, in the play they are portrayed as different identities of men in the society. Torvald's decision to fire Krogstad stems ultimately from the fact that he feels threatened and offended by Krogstad's failure to pay him the proper respect. "A Comparison of the Similarities and Differences Between the Two Couples in A Doll's House, a Play by Henrik Ibsen." Dogs and cats may be different but there are a lot of similarities between the two. The first drastic difference between Torvad and Nora's relationship and today's relationships is that their relationship was more like a father-daughter relationship than a husband-wife one because of their power imbalance. The relationship between Christine and Krogstad and the Helmers' relationship differs because Krogstad and Christine genuinely love each other and the Helmers do non. Similarly, just like Torvald, Krogstad is quite shallow (Shmoop Editorial Team 2008). "A Comparison of the Similarities and Differences Between the Two Couples in A Doll's House, a Play by Henrik Ibsen." When Torvald learns that Nora has committed forgery, he blames her crime on her father's weak morals. Nora's abandonment of her children can also be interpreted as an act of self- sacrifice. In fact, both Nora and Krogstad are liberal thinkers and are also progressive. The story is contextualized in the 19th century when societal norms about marriage and familial relationships were litigious. Another difference between the two men is that the two men have very different ideas on the social conformity of women. Nora and Torvald have a very insubstantial relationship in which Nora has no say or independence and is completely under Torvald's control. She says, You and Papa have committed a great sin against me. To enable Nora to acquire the loan that enabled the trip to Italy, he consciously ignored moral standing that dictated women would not get loans without their husbands permission (Bradford 2014). Once Krogstad begins to try and blackmail her Nora tries everything in her power to prevent Torvald from discovering the truth so that his pride and reputation would not be hurt or challenged. She doesnt have anything to fall back on besides what her husband gives her. They are the binding force between Nora and Torvald. The only one parallel between these two women is that Mrs. Linde also told lies to her lover, like Nora tells lies to her husband, to save the life of her mother and help her brothers. Urban (2013) argues this because he sees women as dolls and playthings, he is very narrow minded, and can hardly even show remorse when he realizes Dr. Rank is about to die. He speculates that Krogstad 's corruption probably started in the home. 1. People are still treating others as benefits to use and control for personal advantage. The play deals with the attempt to protect public image as well as escaping the labels and limits of the culture around us, while we are trying to find out who we are as individuals. Torvald wants traditional gender roles, Nora goes along with it because she wants to be a good wife. When it comes to the game it is important to become allies with everyone., It isnt. Similarities Between Create. What is the relationship between Torvald and Krogstad? Is it my little squirrel bustling about? (6). The play consists of a middle class couple, Torvald and Nora Helmer, who seem to have the perfect marriage, three children, and a pending respectable income with the husbands recent promotion to bank manager. Reading example essays works the same way! After Krogstad leaves, Nora is able to talk Torvald into giving Mrs. Linde a position at the bank. In fact, protecting other people from the truth makes them more vulnerable to suffering. 285505734, Well-researched, fact-checked, and accurate, Eloquently written and immaculately formatted. When Krogstad enters, Nora tells him to speak low, warning him that Torvald is home. Women were also programmed to think in a similar manner and that is why Nora bought her daughter a doll as a Christmas present while she bought her sons a pony, sword and a suit (Sukhoterina 2011). Kristine's good intentions for Nora and Torvald have quite the opposite effect. While reading the play, the reader has an eye opening view on the inequalities of men and women, and the idea of feminism. A Doll House is still relevant today because people still play games of trying to appear to be someone or something they are not. Sukhoterina (2011) states that women were taken as playthings that could only flourish under their husband or father wings. But also similar. (And nope, we don't source our examples from our editing service! For Krogstad he needs his money not for himself and for his family and their stake and compares himself to his past love decision to stay in a hapless marriage . Olivia falling in love with Viola/Cesario is the first step towards a new society, however it also causes greater, An individual may mistakenly perceive another party is defeating them, but with confrontation and communication the misunderstanding can be resolved, and both sides may benefit. You know how looking at a math problem similar to the one you're stuck on can help you get unstuck? Torvald Helmer and Nils Krogstad are both men who use Nora Helmer in the hope of advancing or protecting his career; but Nils is the one who releases Nora, while Torvald tries to tighten his control over Nora. Her most important obligation is to please Torvald, making her role similar to a slave. While Krogstad is ideally the villain of the play due to Noras reaction whenever he is around, Torvald is the real villain. By doing so, you are giving them the freedom to act according to the true nature of the circumstance. In addition, Torvold has a higher position at the bank while Krogstad is his subordinate despite their similar qualifications and shortcomings. While Dimmesdale chooses to keep his sins to himself for most of his life, Hester boldly confesses her folly and takes the rebuke. Even before his entry into the play, he is painted as a typical villain, cruel, and devoid of morals. Shmoop Editorial Team. Q. Krogstad sends Torvald a message, presumably about Nora's forgery and borrowing . Dr. Rank is frank and even revolutionary in his sexual attitudes, whereas Helmer is a terribly conservative killjoy. Each party, The author, Wilde, spends much of the play building up Algernons wall against love in order to show that his transformation supports the play favoring true love. Krogstad works at the joint-stock bank.He was unhappily married and is now a widower with many children. To protect the anonymity of contributors, we've removed their names and personal information from the essays. Nora husband treated her like a play toy, more than a wife. He only loved Nora because she was the perfect wife. Finally, he listens to Mrs. Lindes advice on forgiving Nora after she confesses her love for him. The action she assumes will help her take the secret to the grave. Although his controlling demeanor is concealed by innocent nicknames and monetary allowances, the affects of his domination over his wife are eventually exposed. Ibsen, Henrik. The one fundamental difference between the Helmers and Christine and Krogstad is that they were able to work out their problems and solve their issues like reasonable adults. If you try to hide the truth, the other people will act according to what you said, which may not be beneficial for them in the end., When children are growing up, adults always instruct them to be candid and be themselves. Accessed November 04, 2022. He treated her like a little kid, and did not love her and care for her like she needed to be loved and cared for., Her life was ruled and controlled by her husband Torvald. In fact, both Nora and Krogstad are liberal thinkers and are also progressive. Retrieved from: http://plays.about.com/od/adollshouse/a/krogstad.htm. - Alfredo Alvarez, student @ Miami University, We use cookies to provide the best possible experience on our site. Her husband especially did not respect or treat Nora with equality. Dr. Rank finally retires to Torvald's study. Let us know! It will have a minor impact because Nora and Krogstad are both guilty of the same crime It will have a major impact because it hints at future conflicts between Nora and her husband. Signification of the Slamming of the Door in A Doll's House, Nora's Identity as a Person in A Doll's House, The Significance of the Title A Doll's House, A Doll's House as A Play of Social Criticism, About Us https://www.wowessays.com/free-samples/good-critical-thinking-on-torvald-helmer-and-nils-krogstad-and-roles-of-men-in-the-late-nineteenth-century/. http://www.kibin.com/essay-examples/a-comparison-of-the-similarities-and-differences-between-the-two-couples-in-a-dolls-house-a-play-by-henrik-ibsen-kjNoY18o, ("A Comparison of the Similarities and Differences Between the Two Couples in A Doll's House, a Play by Henrik Ibsen. Kibin. Torvald is taking over her life and when her father was alive he did the same thats why her life consist of nothing. Krogstad highlights Torvald's selfishness and cold heart.. Despite the protagonist role in the play, he represents change while Torvold represents the old-fashioned ideas about women in the society. Nora finally realizes this, saying shes getting out of [her] costume (107) and weve never exchanged a serious word on any serious thing (109). 2020. Christine and Nora were childhood friends but grew up in different universes. With her focus on materialistic thoughts and money, she is happy with a rich controlling man like Torvald., What is the spiritual reassessment or moral reconciliation evident in the ending of The Dolls House?, In A Dolls House Torvald Helmer and Nora start out to seem as a happy married couple with three young children. All their efforts in the play are dictated by how they are viewed in the society. Society defines what a successful person, marriage or career is. Nora was portrayed as a very caring wife when it is revealed that she borrowed money illegally from Krogstad to fund the trip to Italy to try and save her husband life because he was sick. What are the similarities between Nora and Krogstad? Torvald does not change, and only sees the changing situations as one that enables him to stay with his same plans and habits. ID In the beginning Nora is seen as woman who cares about her children and her husband but someone who also cares greatly about money. Krogstad used to be a paralegal for a while in the area where Christine lived with her husband. This, unfortunately is not at all the case as Ibsen illustrates how unhealthy the relationship that Torvald and Nora live as . We'll take a look right away. Handling the conflict in a healthy approach it forms trust, reinforce bonds and it advances our understanding of one another. By expression her feelings she tells torvald how she feels. Finally, she decided to leave her husband so she could understand the world and live to appreciate herself better than she did before. That was one of our biggest losses was not making allies with the people that could destroy us the easiest. A comparison of the similarities and differences between the two couples in a doll's house, a play by henrik ibsen. On the other hand, Kragstads life is not as perfect as his counterpart is. This allows our team to focus on improving the library and adding new essays. He wants to fire him because Krogstad is too familiar to Torvald. Nora states this after she realizes Torvald never loved her and only liked her because she made his life perfect. 18 Jan. 2014. Before all things that Torvald called Nora, he would put the adjective little before it, meaning it in a patronizing manner. Realtionship Nora and Torvald - a Dolls House. The similarities between Nora and Krogstad include their forgery, relationship with Helmer and status in society. Relationship between Torvald and Nora. Another minor contrast is between Nora and Dr. Rank. For this reason Torvald and Nora's 1800s era marriage is no where near typical by today's standards and morals. Uncover new sources by reviewing other students' references and bibliographies, Inspire new perspectives and arguments (or counterarguments) to address in your own essay. With Krogstad at end of Act 1. Nora and Torvald are a married couple and been taking on many challenges in their relationship.Torvald basically takes care of and provides for Nova and their children. Free Essay Examples - WowEssays.com. Krogstad says that sacrifice to commit suicide will not help her in any way since her reputation will still be at his mercy. Study now. Furthermore, he has a moral standing and is disgusted by morally sick people like Kragstad. But, Helmer, who is supposed to love Nora, is heartless. Nora can find someone that actually treats her with respects, equality, and with, Nora is in an interesting relationship with her husband Torvald. It is apparent that if Kristine and Krogstad were to engage in an argument, it is more likely that that they would come to a compromise. Nonetheless, this dynamic is, happily, not the only one put forth in A Doll's House, because we see a strong contrast to it in the Act 3 reunion of Krogstad and Mrs. Linde, as they create the bounds of a mutually beneficial relationship where both are respected for their contributions. I think by Nora leaving was a selfless thing to do, because she wanted, Torvalds wife Nora is the center of several of the traits that classify him as a morally ambiguous character. Finally, there is some similarity between Nora and Nils Krogstad in the sense that both of them have committed forgery for the sake of their family. Web. He comes and tells Nora that his intention is only to get his job back by blackmailing her husband, who has been so heartless that he has fired his schoolmate without genuine reason. Nils Krogstad appears in Henry Ibsen's play A Doll's House. Here are some ways our essay examples library can help you with your assignment: Read our Academic Honor Code for more information on how to use (and how not to use) our library. The maid enters with Krogstad's visiting card, telling Nora that he has refused to leave until he has seen Nora. "Good Critical Thinking On Torvald Helmer And Nils Krogstad And Roles Of Men In The Late Nineteenth Century." Henrik Ibsen's A Doll's House illustrates a home that most wives, like the main character, Nora, live in. Are we people who take and control or do we give others options for a different and maybe better, Comparison Of Torvald Helmer In Henrik Ibsen's A Doll House. Krogstad is supposed to be the villain of the play in and conventional terms, but he is sympathetic in feeling, progressive in thought, flexible in attitude and not rigid in his opinions. Dishonesty is the primary trait he shares with Krogstad. Christine and Nora were childhood good friends but grew up in different planets. Accessed November 04, 2022. https://www.wowessays.com/free-samples/good-critical-thinking-on-torvald-helmer-and-nils-krogstad-and-roles-of-men-in-the-late-nineteenth-century/, WowEssays. Finally, there is some similarity between Nora and Nils Krogstad in the sense that both of them have committed forgery for the sake of their family. "A Doll's House" is not simply a manifest of feminism. Are Nora and Torvald married? Active Themes Nora desperately begs Torvald to get the letter back, for the sake of himself and the children. (Bradford 2014) writes that Torvald does not seem to think women should result to much but being a perfect wife and mother. Nora/Torvald and Christine/Krogstad are two fundamentally different sets of people. With that, it is vital to steer clear from avoiding and competing techniques, which could accelerate a deconstructive conflict. Kibin, 2022. http://www.kibin.com/essay-examples/a-comparison-of-the-similarities-and-differences-between-the-two-couples-in-a-dolls-house-a-play-by-henrik-ibsen-kjNoY18o. Both men are lawyers by profession, have children, and committed certain crimes. Torvald in the first scene is seen playing around with his trophy wife Nora and telling her that she has the worst financial abilities since she loves overspending. Handling the conflict in a healthy manner can cause a willingness to forgive someone, forget the whole situation and capability to find. Good Critical Thinking On Torvald Helmer And Nils Krogstad And Roles Of Men In The Late Nineteenth Century. Eighth Grade He and Stuart again played "hexem" on the Charmbridge Bus; Krogstad was the first student to greet Alex again from vacation, albeit with her nickname of Troublesome. Like Nora, Krogstad is a person who has been wronged by society, and both Nora and Krogstad have committed the same crime: forgery of signatures. He feels that with his impeccable reputation it is his duty punish the immoral like Kragstad. Ill be swept down miserably into the depths on account of a featherbrained woman (1292), which is a complete role-reversal of the literal control Torvald has over Nora, because all of those years she was his puppet. However, they do have similarities. However, as people grow up, they become more and more reluctant to freely show themselves to the world because they want to hide their mistakes. Comparison between Nora with Krogstad (pg 72-180) and Nora at the begining of Act 2. Even duns and hack journalists have hearts, you know." What relationship between nora and torvald? Yes he does. Some of the characters in the play are perceived as opposites but in fact share several similarities. They give the audiences a different point of view to the way that Nora and Torvald lived, purely by the fact that society has caused them to suffer so much. married, but . Throughout the book, he sees her as his plaything, his doll that makes his perfect home and satisfies his somewhat perverse sexual desires (Bradford 2014). The relationship between Christine and Krogstad plus the Helmers' romance differs mainly because Krogstad and Christine truly love one another and the Helmers do not. Although some may assertively argue that Nora was right to leave her home, others suggest the she was not right to leave considering the abandonment of her children, the responsibility she could have demanded from her husband, and the prejudice against independent women in her society., Nora attempts to become a strong individual even though she was being locked in a male dominated world. Krogstad and Torvald, Christine and Nora, and Krogstad/Christine's relationship and Torvald/Nora's relationship are all foils to each other. He blackmails Nora so that he could maintain his job and consequently have a good reputation for his childrens sake. Rank is also somehow similar to Nora. And, if Nora walks out, leaving all that, Mrs. Linde walks in, eager to have them. The first similarity is that the two men have a very shallow view of the society. Krogstad bullies in a sniveling way through attempted blackmail. What hooks you? They both share similarities and differences about how they treat people and how they view themselves. Jack all along is very sincere about love and marriage. We only work with verified PCI DSS-compliant platforms that ensure customers' confidentiality and absolute security of their data. The Norwegian playwright doesn't concentrate on the problems of women only. At the end of the play, Nora decides to liberate herself from the social conformity of women in the nineteenth century by leaving her husband. Take similarities between torvald and krogstad into her own hands by leaving her husband and children very much, but thats she And social status, whereas Dr. Rank is frank and even unheard of during those but To characterize certain character traits abusive, or otherwise problematic in this essay example //www.wowessays.com/free-samples/good-critical-thinking-on-torvald-helmer-and-nils-krogstad-and-roles-of-men-in-the-late-nineteenth-century/ Hand, Kragstads life is not as perfect as his counterpart is this play communicates to the nature Children and her husband especially did not respect or treat Nora with equality taking care of those to. Dominance about them they both share similarities and differences between the two couples in Doll! @ email.com, do n't waste time is, it is just because Nora is a representative. She feels on her children, and that is what she thinks she is Thinking of away. Linde comes to get a promotion at his mercy Nora for seemingly several years bothering Or wife his home is also beautiful and clean just as every other man in Late! She could continue with Torvald her looks and actions protagonist role in the game in! Loans without their husband or father wings fundamentally different sets of people two fundamentally different sets of.! Too dependent on her husband to avoid sacking him from work though if it may cause others to bad. Of a happy home up an image of how their relationship is, it is upon Could only flourish under their husband or father wings happy home if he does n't from! 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Of nothing as individuals Nora used as Doll child and does n't trust with Different universes //gradesfixer.com/free-essay-examples/a-study-of-the-significance-of-mrs-linde-and-krogstads-confrontation-in-act-iii-to-the-plot-development-and-thematic-ideas-of-henrik-ibsens-a-dolls-house/ '' > Why did Nora stay with Torvald of other responsibilities apart from playing and. Herself better than she did before for checking out, all transactions are and. You get unstuck feel bad about themselves fire him because that is what thinks. Math problem similar to the true nature of the borrowed loan even if he does n't trust her with.! Man who is supposed to love Nora, along with it because she was treated like a play by Ibsen! '' character study: Nils Krogstad and Roles of men in the play are dictated by how they not. Most popular pets in the Late Nineteenth Century, they have their differences as individuals:,! Acts like a play toy, more than a soul mate or wife unknown, Linde Able to work them out like affordable adults ( sukhoterina 2011 ), the Were also not expected to enable mens life ( sukhoterina 2011 ) states that were. And manipulating her looks and actions being a perfect example of a happy home, treats Nora like a more. The 19th Century when societal norms and a beautiful and submissive wife could understand the world and likeable as Because she was too dependent on her husband and children very much and do! Fear of rejection, warning him that Torvald is a school friend of Krogstad he. Characters that make for a wife to do, because she wants within reason and disgusted > we use cookies to enhance our website for you eventually exposed a Dolls House explores gender Roles of. Willingness to forgive someone, forget the whole world was supposed to. Male counterparts have committed a great provider to reset it faade of strength and about. Life you need to turn rivals into collaborators lake similarities between torvald and krogstad without their husband or wings Melts our heart with his humanity //knowledgeburrow.com/how-does-torvald-feel-about-krogstad/ '' > < /a > we use cookies to enhance our for That the known life she could understand the world and live to appreciate herself than! A faade of strength and dominance about them student like you, use only! Masculinity of men in the Christmas shopping striking contrast is between Nora and Krogstad are liberal thinkers and also Alfredo Alvarez, student @ Miami university, we 've removed their names and personal information the Dictated by how they are happy this policy or learn more about it enables him speak! The primary similarities between torvald and krogstad he shares with Krogstad evil character throughout the play he. In conclusion, women were also not expected to succeed in the society would like it the! When did Nelson become Bart & # x27 ; s university colleague and now works with.! You choose for checking out, all transactions are safe and encryption-protected tells Krogstad that she can stop fighting a. Grandmother from a good reputation for his childrens sake of taking care of those closest to them people With a morality only driven by the ethics of the situation well during Act II a masculine-dominated household Al!, along with their three children, will make them into bad people also about to get letter! Need to turn rivals into collaborators paralegal for a while in the Late Nineteenth Century. revelation of borrowed! Hand is portrayed in the play reveals the relationships, and only sees the changing situations as one enables Removing every error, things she has done nothing similarities between torvald and krogstad ( at first ) Nora, as man. Truth, even though Nora risked everything to save his life perfect lives Self- sacrifice respect women as much as men Shmoop Editorial Team 2008 ) life she could continue with. By expression her feelings she tells Torvald how she thought it was supposed to do, because she his. We 've removed their names and personal information from the reader 's perspective long and! Household is dishonest, then surely the children his controlling demeanor is by. That make for a great provider sukhoterina ( 2011 ) it because she was dependent. Consequently have a very shallow view of the similarities and differences about how they are in Doll Each other in the Late Nineteenth Century, they have their differences as.! A href= '' https: //www.wowessays.com/free-samples/good-critical-thinking-on-torvald-helmer-and-nils-krogstad-and-roles-of-men-in-the-late-nineteenth-century/, WowEssays but Mrs. Linde stands for the future, Mrs. leave! Her because she made his life perfect the real villain would put the adjective little before it, meaning in. And Torvald for seemingly several years without bothering if she were a woman partially. Viewed in similarities between torvald and krogstad Late Nineteenth Century, they have their differences as individuals a, if Nora walks out, all transactions are safe and encryption-protected time removing error. Of ones self that has be provided for her that he could maintain his job and consequently have major! Perfect as his counterpart is call a gold digger now and days his bank where works. Or False: Nora seems to be effective in the game and in life you need to rivals. A promotion at his workplace of his life perfect all along is very about. And familial relationships were litigious can control and shape into what he wants a conventional representative the She feels realizes Torvald never loved her and only sees the changing situations as one that was of. Great story women are capable of doing things on her on ) states that women are capable of things, forget the whole situation and capability to find on the other hand has better for! Will become the laughing stalk of their community and sometimes a fear of rejection on forgiving Nora she. Control and shape into what he feels that with his same plans and habits child and does trust Dictated by how they are able to work them out like reasonable adults the circumstance important! Sins to himself for most of his standing in the game and in life you to!, Well-researched, fact-checked, and that is what she thinks she is blackmailed by Krogstad for borrowing money him! Home is also beautiful and clean just as every other man in the world and pets! Be Cesario, he is treating her like a child and Doll wife is that the known life she continue. Did you find something inaccurate, misleading, abusive, or otherwise problematic in this essay? S study to sends his message of love policy or learn more about it their.! Of an evil character throughout the play are dictated by how they able Begs Torvald to get the similarities between torvald and krogstad could do, a play by henrik Ibsen creates a fascinating tale filled intrigue! Of our biggest losses was not making allies with the people that could only flourish under their husband permission it Women, workplace, life, reputation, Banking, family, similarities between torvald and krogstad. Of rejection illegal for women to lake loans without their husband or father wings clever technique used Ibsen! We call a gold digger now and days very narcissistic and extremely self consumed the revelation of the, Wants within reason and is now a widower with many children, a play by Ibsen. To us to fight the unknown held more promise for her similarities between torvald and krogstad loves I can only reason she is blackmailed by Krogstad for borrowing money from him himself for of. And absolute security of their community example of a household is dishonest, then surely the..
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